The latest InRoads Training Session is available “InRoads Training Session 6 – Roadway Designer”
This link gets you to the folder that contains all the available CADD training videos we have on the web. MicroStation and InRoads.
VT Agency of Transportation
1 National Life Drive
Montpelier, VT 05633
VAOT CADD on Web
VAOT CADD SharePoint
I have received a request to change the Agency Standard Corner card. The change is illustrated below. Basically the PROJECT LEADER: would read PROJECT SUPERVISOR:
Not sure if this a needed change, we have been using LEADER for a pretty long time. The change has several issue to consider.
1) There is less space for the name..
2) This would need to be a change that is not retroactive meaning it would be in the new cell library but not required to be used.
3) This would create plan sets with both versions most likely.
4) The corner card is a tag / cell so find are replace text does not work well because the name is a separate piece of text and it does not move over with the longer text string.
None of these are a deal. I will make the change if we all agree it is a good change. If it is change for the sake of change and we could do without it I am good with that also. Please let us know what you think.
I have a file naming question. CHA is working on a VTrans project (z13C518) which encompasses four towns. The towns are Chester, Springfield, Rockingham and Winsor. Our approach was to have four separate BDR and NU files so we could progress the projects simultaneously. Assuming CHA goes forward with the desire to have separate BDR and NU files for each town what do you suggest we use for file naming of the BDR and NU files to remain compliant with file VTrans naming conventions?
Below is the email trail of a Bentley Service request for support on an InRoads Survey issue. This issue is with the way InRoads Survey imports TDS raw survey data and stores HI (Height of Instrument) for each OC (Station Occupation). See trail below for details.
It seems they are going to look at fixing the issue as it is being classified as a Defect.
Summary of Fix: (Please see the AOT Route Survey Crew chiefs for specific workflows)
At this point all prior active project survey data is being or has already been examined for possible elevation errors due to HI reading misinterpretation. Generally this errors is caused by consecutive setups on the same Station Point with a different HI and seems to occur sporadically but it is somewhat common, when it does occur the HI measurements are often very close, within (2-3) one-hundredths of a foot, but can be more it depends on the situation. They Route survey section is investigating and notifications are being sent to Project Managers when potentially significant elevation errors are possible on active projects. Note that HI measurements that are 0.01’ off, would be more on the actual observation, and would be affected by the horizontal distance measure.
The current field workflow to solve this issue is to setup on any re-occupied point as per standard procedure but to make a specific BK (Backsight) error measurement, i.e. input that you are making a BK to an incorrect point, let the data collector make an error notification then proceed to BK the correct point. Please see the Route Survey Crew chiefs for specifics on the procedure if you have need to know.
The office work flow to solve this issue is to modify the raw survey data, by copying and pasting the OC and BK data lines from the original Occupied point to the new reoccupied point location where a new HI has been recorded. Again if you have specific needs to do this please see the Route survey section for details. It is not overly difficult but it does require you know what you are doing.
I have also copied the VAOT CADD Update distribution. If you are a consultant that does survey work this may interest you.
Mike LongstreetAOT TechnicianVT Agency of Transportation1 National Life DriveMontpelier, VT 05633Phone: 802-828-5718Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.usVAOT CADD on Web
before you print
From: Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com [mailto:Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com] Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 17:10To: Longstreet, MikeSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
Got it. Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your assessment and have created a defect for you. The defect number is D-132360. We will have our Survey developer take a look at this.
From: Longstreet, Mike [mailto:Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.us] Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 7:36 AMTo: Jacquelyn PettusCc: Longstreet, MikeSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
It think there is a few more key concepts to this issue. You mentioned when we setup on the same point and we just assume they are in the same location, NO when they setup on the same point the next day the go through all of the same process and input as if it were a different point, but the data collector stores it differently.
This only occurs when you Occupy the same point consecutively and backsight the same back sight point. But this situation of Occupying the same point consecutively happens often, for example at the end of each day if they have not completed all the required observations from that point and when they break for lunch if they leave the site they break down the setup and then when they come back the setup again on the same point and go through all the motions required to Occupy a point.
If they were to back sight a different point that would trigger the data collector to note a new OC but more often then not they would backsight the same traverse point each time the occupy a specific point for example if you OC OP104 they BK BP100 every time (it may be the only back traverse point in sight). But the BK is not recorded in the .raw data. This seems to be a key point. It does seem that the data collector and .raw survey data should record each back sight regardless of whether or not it is exactly (within toleraences) the same as the previous recorded BK shot and point. And it seems the .raw data should show an OC data entry line each time a point is reoccupied. But the fact is that it does not.
If for some reason the HI reading is the same from OC session to OC then there is no apparent error. But the HI measured distance from OC to OC will change especially if a different survey crew member is taking the shots.
So when a OC is used in consecutive sessions with the same BK point TDS raw only records the LS,HI__.HR__ line in the .raw data. In order for InRoads Survey to correctly use this data every time there is an LS line in the raw data is would need to be examined to see if the HI has changed if it has then a New Station occupation should be observed for the field book.
We talked with other DOT survey sections and they agree.
P.S. There are occasions when a data collector setup on a tripod will settle and become out of level. Generally the data collector will give an error when it becomes out of level. At this point the survey crew would reset the level re-measure the HI and re-backsight the BK point. The data collector in the raw data would only record a new HI for this operations but it would not change all the HI measurements for shots made prior to the changed HI, it would internally realize that this is a new Station Occupation and InRoads in order to correctly interpret this would also need to Create a New Station occupation in the field book.
Sorry for the long drawn out description of this but it seems necessary to fully realize the issue. There error seems tricky to spot but once you see the issue it’s is a WOW how could this be.
Mike LongstreetAOT TechnicianVT Agency of Transportation1 National Life DriveMontpelier, VT 05633Phone: 802-828-5718Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.usVAOT CADD on Web
From: Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com [mailto:Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 13:55To: Longstreet, MikeSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
We can log a defect against this, but I guess I am still confused as to your procedure. Do your guys go out the next day, set up on the same spot and just assume they are in the same location? Do they not level the instrument and shoot the backspot? It seems to me that even if you set up on the same spot, you would want to record this as a new station. Pardon my inexperience in surveying, but I’m just not understanding why you would assume you are in the exact same location and just record a new HI.
From: Longstreet, Mike [mailto:Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.us] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:12 PMTo: Jacquelyn PettusSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
Thank you for looking into this.
From: Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com [mailto:Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 15:03To: Longstreet, MikeSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
I have forwarded your email to my supervisor and we will review this and talk it over with our survey developers. I should have more information for you regarding this issue shortly.
From: Longstreet, Mike [mailto:Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.us] Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:23 AMTo: Longstreet, Mike; Jacquelyn PettusSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
One of two things needs to happen for the InRoads survey data import of TDS raw file to be correct.
1) InRoads needs to read the .raw data as if when a new HI is collected it should create a new Station Occupation.
2) Or the TDS .raw survey data output needs to record a new OP Station when the survey data collector is remounted and setup.
Did this make sense? It seems InRoads is interpreting the TDS .raw survey data file causing many elevation errors. If a new HI is input in the data collector this should be interpreted as a new Station Occupied point in the field book. The current InRoads interpolation is that each time a new HI is recorded in the field data it is used for all prior shots making them all incorrect.
Please let us know what the future of .raw data interpretation for InRoads will be. Currently InRoads does not interpret TDS .raw survey data correctly. Should we start investigating other TDS output methods to see in InRoads imports and interprets other survey data formats correctly.
We actually have hundreds of survey data projects with this error. We have people sifting through each project .raw to see where changes in HI were not interpreted as new Station Occupation.
We have look backward into TDS .raw survey data files and this is how they have always been at least since the late 1990’s and we have been using InRoads Survey to import this data since then so all this data has potential elevation bust. Most of the elevation errors are minimal thankfully, due the fact that each surveyor typically set their HI very similar each day and each time the re-setup, but it does change in some cases a significant amount.
From: Longstreet, Mike Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 16:00To: 'Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com'Subject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
The issue is that we are actually reporting it as a new station occupation in the data collector but if you re occupy the same point for example take the data collector down the come back the next day and reoccupy the same point it does not register as a new point it simply changes the HI and HR.
So I know InRoads will only have one HI per OP that is good that is the way it should be. The TDS survey data does not report the reoccupation of a point in a way the InRoads will read this.
It most likely not only an InRoads issue but InRoads is not importing the TDS output the same way it is intended to be read.
One of two things needs to happen for the InRoads survey data import of TDS raw file to be correct. 1) InRoads needs to read the .raw data and when a new HI is collected it should create a new Station Occupation. Or the TDS .raw survey data output needs to record a new OP Station when the survey data collector is remounted and setup.
Basically if a new HI is recorded InRoads should be reading that as a New OP Station that is how the TDS software read the data.
From: Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com [mailto:Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com] Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 14:36To: Longstreet, MikeSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
I have looked over this with my supervisor, and it does appears that InRoads Survey will only allow one HI per station. If you are going to change the HI, you will need to record it as a new station.
From: Longstreet, Mike [mailto:Mike.Longstreet@state.vt.us] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 1:29 PMTo: Jacquelyn PettusSubject: RE: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
I have uploaded the files to the sharefile.com site you linked. Not sure how to send you a link to the files. Let me know if you can get them. If not I will send another link.
From: Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com [mailto:Jacquelyn.Pettus@bentley.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 13:31To: Longstreet, MikeSubject: Bentley Technical Support SR-7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
This email is in reference to the Service Request listed below.
Service Request Number: 7000107268, Survey Instrument Height HI error
Your data did not attached to the service request. Can you please send me your XIN and your raw data file? You can upload it using the link below:
Jacquelyn L. Pettus InRoads Technical Support AnalystBentley Systems, Inc.
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02/11/2014 20:10:56 ASPRFC
Service Request created from the web by Mike Longstreet.
We use InRoads Survey to import TDS .raw survey data. There appea
rs to be an error in the way InRoads handles HI settings. It seems if you change the HI (Instrument Height) during one OP (o
ccupy point) setup InRoads Survey will only use the last HI for all the points collected. One could assume that the HI would
never change for one OP but that is not the case. There are several reasons it could require changes in a similar manner to
the HR changes but obviously not as often.
We can see from the .raw that the HI are recorded observation are shot then th
e HI is changed and more observations are shot. But when looking at the FWD field book only the last HI is used for all the
shots making the incorrect.
This error was only recently found and we are digging through past survey jobs and finding thi
s error and resulting bad existing ground topo and elevation. There als appears to be no fix for the issue.
I am sendin
g on a .raw file. The “bottom” the file has some test shots to demonstrate the issue. Note OP104 stored on line 1084 and th
e HI set to 5.271 then an observation is taken then on line 1096 the HI is changed to 6.00 then an observation, then on line
1104 HI is changed to 8.00. Notice in the InRoads field book the only recorded HI is 8.00 see image attached.
Also the OP
104 shots in the middle of the file line (690 - 823) also demonstrate the same issue only the last HI input is used for all t
Date/Time: 4/2/2014 1:00 PM - 2:30 PM Eastern Time
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